Thursday, January 7, 2010

I Don't Understand Some People

WARNING: If you value original designs and respect copyrights, do not buy anything from www.coquetryclubwear.com!

You know, I really try to be an open-minded understanding person. The other day I had posted a site that had a knock-off piece of my work on it. Then, I had second thoughts and removed the post and contacted the owner of the site to inquire about it before I made any further judgements. Well, I just received a reply that floors me.
She has the audacity to say to ME that she came up with that design all on her own after
referring to it as "tabistry" (which was coined by our own GypsyLaKat)! My word, I can't understand some people.

For those who missed my first post on this issue, the site is called www.coquetryclubwear.com which I believe is owned/run by a lady named Ellen in Mississippi. In her shop there is a section called
"Pop Top Tabistry" which contains a corset for sale.



I had mixed feeling when I saw it, so I posted here about it. Then, I decided to just contact the artist to see what they were thinking. To be fair, I will include the email that I sent her:


"To whom it may concern, Hello. I'm Tiffany, also known as "mieljolie" on forums and my blogs. One of which is "The Art of Tabistry" at
tabistry.blogspot.com. I came across the "Pop Top Tabistry" section of your site CoquetryClubwear.com, which made me a little happy and sad at the same time to see the corset/bodice listed there. I'm really flattered that the artist who made it liked my tabistry designs enough to give it a try. It looks very nicely done, and I really like the colors chosen and the addition of the zipper. However, when I posted my pattern for the bodice/corset on my own blog, it was displayed for personal and educational use only. It was not with the intention for others to use the design for profit. I realize some effort has been made to make the item different than what I have created, but it does not change the fact that the design is based on someone else's work. I want to express my feelings to you in hopes that you will see my side and remove it from your site. Or at least, publish credit for the design to the appropriate source. I'm happy that you are providing ready-made tabistry items to the general public, but please make them original designs as conveyed on your "About Us" page. I'm fairly certain that this was not done with any malice in mind, which is why I am writing to you with the sincerest of appeals. I wish you much success in selling tabistry clothing. Perhaps, if we all work together, many more people will see what beautiful things can be done with tabs, and your sales will grow beyond what is imaginable. I'd even be happy to advertise your new and original designs on my blog for others to admire. All that I ask is that you please please give credit where it is due. That way we can all benefit from our creativity. Hope the new year brings you success and happiness! Sincerely, Tiffany Hinnen"


I know I'm not a writer, but it was sincere enough, right? Doesn't it deserve at least an honest refusal? Now, here comes the response, so that all of you can see the kind of person I'm dealing with. Please indulge me while I comment on what I was thinking when I read it. The number represent my thought in order below:

"Thank you for contacting us. We appreciate the effort and sincerity that you put into your email. However, the corset is a centuries old pattern [1], the design of which cannot be attributed to any one person. Yours is not the first pop tab corset. In researching your concern, I have found pop tab corsets that pre-date your blog. If you have made a functioning, fully boned corset, you can make a costume corset out of just about anything [2]. Although there are many small details that vary, the basic styling of all corsets is extremely similar [3], whether it be made of canvas, leather, cotton, or pop tabs. I'm sure that having worked with pop tops, you are able to make just about whatever you can imagine using pop tabs and your aquired techniques [4]. I have done both corsetry and tabbing. So putting together a pop tab corset was not an unfamiliar endeavor [5]. However, I did not buy your pattern or attempt to re-create your corset. I did look at as many photos of pop tab items as I could find, and in doing so I briefly viewed your site as well [6]. Your site is quite nice, but our corsets are different in many ways.
I'm sorry, but I cannot credit you with the design of our items, nor will I remove them from our item list. Sincerely, Ellen Klimczak Sales@CoquetryClubwear.Com"


1. Hmmm, I wasn't aware that pop tabs were used in the construction of corsets in the renaissance. Though my pattern was based off of a Elizabethan-styled pattern generator, I sited my source.

2. I'm not at all sure how this justifies copying someone else's design. I mean, even if it wasn't mine, it was someone's, right? Though, I'd like to see all these other pop tab corsets and how similar they are to mine.

3. Wow, really? " Extremely similar"? No changes in style for how many centuries? I don't know a great deal about the history of corsetry, but IMHO the cone-shaped renaissance corset varys substantially from the Victorian hourglass shaped ones. Not to mention over/underbust, full and half length designs. Even the seams and closures move to different areas around the body. But hers used every seam mine does. How coincidental!

4. Well, yes, I believe my blog proves that I CAN make just about anything with tabs, as can anyone else who learns how to connect tabs together. So why are all of her work so similar to everyone else's.

5. She must be gifted, because putting together a pop tab corset was definitely unfamiliar to me the first time I tried it. Even after sewing/drafting patterns for many years, what parts of making a traditional corset and one out of tabs is similar besides the shape? Corset fabrics are not intended to stretch. Tabistry has some stretch, though the nature of the stiffness gives ample support. An unaltered corset pattern would not be suitable in tabistry corset making. May I also ask where she's inserting the boning?

6. Well that's just contradictory, isn't it. ;) Let me paraphrase, if I can. 'I looked at your stuff for ideas, but though mine is just about exactly like yours in style, shape, weave, and construction, I didn't copy it. Look, I even used different colors and a zipper.'


I hope you understand why I'm going through all the trouble of posting all this. My intentions are not to bash people or spew negative comments on here. I just want everyone to know what kind of company they are buying their tabistry items from. Though, I am not selling items, yet, or taking any requests for custom work, if you do indeed want to purchase ready-made items or get a custom piece made, feel free to contact me. I'd be happy to suggest some more reputable artists than this one. I can even try posting requests on here to find you someone.

Hope everyone is having a better day today than I. Until next time! :)

50 comments:

  1. UPDATE: Wow, another coincidence! Looks like the corset is SOLD all of a sudden! Well, maybe the artist has some integrity after all.

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  2. I just read the about us stuff and I'm sorry to say that after going through the site and looking at some of the items, i've seen some of the same exact stuff on other websites, ebay and so forth. Original works, I don't think so.

    ReplyDelete
  3. It's a real shame, too. Their craftsmanship seems to be improving quite a bit. They have the ability to start making some nice pieces if they could just design something of their own. At least the changes on the newest listing is a start. :)

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  4. You did a great job in your letter of putting it out there yet not being confrontational in a bad way. I have been following your creative process for a long time. I love your pieces. You do great quality work. I have been saving tabs forever and awaiting inspiration to give it a try on my own. Hugs, Viki

    ReplyDelete
  5. Thank you, Viki. You're very kind. I always fear that what I type will be misread from the way I intended.

    I know from experience that waiting for tabs can really dampen the creative energy. :) Do you have any particular thing you might try making? Will it be a large project? I'd enjoy hearing about your ideas. Maybe we can help with suggestions.

    I've got some smaller nonwearable pieces I'm working on. Also trying to finish up some projects that I've put aside ages ago, as well as get some tutorials up.

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  6. I am very glad you posted this. I had been looking at their other stuff like the "5 piece cowl dress" and thinking that while I could make it it would be less stress to just buy it and enjoy it. I have decided that I will just put it together myself. I'm also passing the word along to my friends.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Your very welcome, Jaenelle. You may try searching online some more. You may find the original designer else where. :)

    BTW, when I went to look at what you were talking about, I noticed that the left navigation menu has been changed. She is no longer calling her can tab section "Pop Top Tabistry", though the link still takes you to the same page. Guess this is an attempt to cover tracks or something. Who knows.

    Take care, everyone!

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hi guys. I was just made aware of another example of how Coquetry Clubwear is unethical and most definitely immoral. Looks like Ellen has just listed a new can tab baseball cap. But, just as I was going to applaud her on an original design, it states "BACK IN STOCK" in the listing title. What?! How can it be back in stock when it was never in stock before???

    This is obviously an unscrupulous attempt to make it look as though these caps are popular and selling well. But don't they realize that any internet user can do a quick search through cached sites to determine that it has never been listed before, so cannot possibly have sold out before. Tricking your customers is not what I would call good business practices. The nerve of some people.

    Way to go Ellen.

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  9. It seems like they put this corset back on the site, but with a few changes that made it look so heavy and thick. Not something I'd wear, unlike yours.
    You're doing such a great job here, can't wait to see your new designs.
    Daniele.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Hello, Daniele.

    Thanks for commenting. I would agree the thick crocheted edge makes her piece look a little bulky.

    I'm working on a few things at once that I hope to eventually get finished. Trouble is I keep finding new things to try and drop the older projects to experiment. :) I'm currently working on ways to add more color and pattern for interest. I'll post my results.

    Mieljolie

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  11. If she took the idea from you, she didn't to it very well. Your stuff actually looks good, unlike Hookers-R-Us.. It looks like a porn site, I'm embarrassed just to look at her stuff!

    ReplyDelete
  12. Hehe. Thanks, Maggie.

    I think she and I have very different goals in mind for our projects. Remember everyone, let's give our trash some class. ;)

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  13. I just discovered your blog and it hurts me that someone would steal your idea with out giving you credit...I've had it done before through my shop. :(
    I just keeping on believing in the "power" of good Karma and know that they will get what they deserve in do time.

    Your corsets are so much better!

    ReplyDelete
  14. Michelle, I was very disappointed. I like to see the good in people. I didn't mind that she made a corset like mine. I'm flattered. But, claiming it's her design and trying to make a profit off of it is just morally wrong. By now, I'm sure she is aware of this, but refuses to change her ways. What would it hurt her to mention where she got the design from, really? I was saddened the most that I was driven to removing the pattern from my blog.

    I'd agree with Karma. She's definitely not giving her self a very good name or making any friends this way. Just hope she realizes this, soon.

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  15. Get your works officially copywritten for the pattern. this way,
    if they keep doing it, gather all the pictures to prove the sembelence in the work on multiple articles.

    Then send her a message that your works are copywritten, and if she doesnt cease and desist, you will take her to court.

    I know its not the best way to go about it, but some people are trolls and will not do anything because they are trolls, and think they can reap the rewards from someone elses hard work. Ive had this happen to me a few times myself

    ReplyDelete
  16. Hi Kiera-Oona! Thanks for the suggestions. It's sad that this abuse has become such a common problem. I hear so many artist tellin horror stories about their own experiences.

    I've read many debates that went round and round about the confusions of actual rights and what the laws will protect. From what I've gathered, copyright is supposed to be automatic in the US. And, the date the item is first published publicly is supposed to be proof of it's creation. I've submitted logos for official copyright documentation in the past, but it did no good at all after discovering that it's usually much to costly to actually pursue the lawsuit. Fashion or wearable items have other exceptions too, from what I hear.

    All this does not excuse what Ellen at Coquetry Clubwear is doing, though. I'm more disheartened by the utter lack of morals and complete denial of the offense. I will trust that karma will right this situation in it's own time.

    Thank, again,

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  17. Well, actually I think that it really can be her own design. There are too many people with too many ideas theese days. I once came up with the idea of making tab corsets and bags and some other stuff, and I thought I was the first. But after a google search I found out that I was not, which was kinda sad for me :)

    ReplyDelete
  18. I really don't know why I'm bothering to reply to the comment above instead of just deleting it. I guess it will at least show how ignorant people can still be about copyright. Honestly, I think I understand why they left themselves as anonymous here. As I type I'm wondering if they ARE Ellen attempting to build their own side to this. (Is this paranoia speaking? Nah, after the other stunts it's perfectly possible.) So, after a deep breath, here goes:

    Anon, have you even read this entire post or looked at the corset that was for sale at Coquetry Clubwear? Ellen's corset is almost identical to mine in design and construction, which makes it highly unlikely that she came up with the idea all on her own. She even admitted to seeing my work before she made hers. Anyone should be able to see clearly that this definitely was NOT a spontaneous idea. That part is not under debate here.

    Furthermore, I'm not sure why finding out you were not the only one to come up with the idea of a tab corset or bag made you "sad". Did you ever actually make the ideas you thought up? As long as they were your ideas and designs, you should be proud that you created something so clever. And, be proud to call them your own. In this case, it really doesn't matter who created the first corset or bag. They are original. There are just too many possible solutions for yours to turn out just like someone else's. That should be clear in the finished product.

    I was actually overjoyed to find all the unusual and unique can tab projects other artist have made before me. I've seen many things made of tab-maille, which is linking tabs to tabs or with metal rings. And, even prom dresses woven with tabs made before I started mine. The closest thing I found to my work when I started looking was a warrior dress a girl made of them. Although, it was the same "idea", our design solutions were not alike at all. She even used a weave totally different from mine and laid the tabs out very differently, too. She even crocheted her edges, which I don't do.

    So to sum up, I shall state this again. It is perfectly acceptable to create your own tab corset or bag whether you are inspired by other's or not. However, it's not acceptable to call copied works made without permission YOUR OWN to sell for profit.

    Have I made this clear yet, Ellen? ;)

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  19. Hi! Just found your site and am totally inspired! I have to say that I appreciate your take on the situation above. I frequently look to the web for inspiration in costuming for belly dance - but wouldn't dream of saying something I'm copying was my own idea. When people ask where I came up with a piece, I point them to the original artist. That's how it should be done.
    Thanks for being so original! It's inspiring!

    ReplyDelete
  20. Hi Elizabeth. I'm honored to have inspired you. And, I agree with you. The internet is a wonderful place to find inspiration. One reason I share so many "how to's" one my craft blog is to give back to those who were so gracious enough to share their own talents and ideas with me.

    Thanks,

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  21. I honestly think were both not really understanding eachother.
    1. They said the corset was in renaissance era. Not "tabbed corsets"
    2. I have made corsets for years and the designs ARE always very simular just different matierals, I have made corsets from fabric, bags, duct tape, beads, and even yes....pop tabs...before seeing this. The design is the same and once you make it in one matieral is is very easy to make a pattern for other matierals. That does not mean they are copying you. Didnt you even say yours was based off of an "Elizabethan-styled pattern"? I'm sorry to tell you this love, but than your copying as well. just a different matieral.
    3. Understand this. The seams in corsets are a lot the same. and you honestly can not deny that your seams were from the pattern you used. Which I will say again...Is a lot like most corsets out there. So than that person having the same seams is a lot more likely than you think. The ones I make have those same seams. with almost every matieral I have used. In fact, mine look a lot like that just with different colors...even my FABRIC ones.
    4. Honestly in the letter she did make herself seem guilty of copying it but your "thoughts" are quite narrow minded.

    ReplyDelete
  22. The anonymous post above this, I apologize if what I said sounded rude or arrogent but it seems you don't quite understand the simplisity of this situation.
    (sorry for my spelling errors I am in a lot of pain and my pain pills have stopped working.)
    I nhope you have a nice day.

    ReplyDelete
  23. sorry same person, please dont get me wrong I really love the things you have created and I have made things like them with beads and as well as pop tabs so I do understand how much work is put into each piece. Please dont think I dont.

    ReplyDelete
  24. To respond to Anon's comments:

    1. Huh? (This must have something to do with the pain pills comment.)

    2. I'm sorry, but you sound so much like Ellen, to me. Not to be rude, but pics or any documented proof of all these corsets you speak of making "for years" might help your argument. Funny, how I have made 4 different corset designs (just check the blog) and many more in my own head waiting to come out, while you (and Ellen) keep churning out this so-called same one.

    FYI, I said I based my design on a pattern generator, not an actual pattern or someone's finished work. I only used the generator to get the proper shape for my size. If you had looked at the link, you'd know mine looks nothing like her Elizabethan pattern, which had straps and a point in front. Furthermore, I added the wide lacing over the front, myself. With all that, I still SITED my source, (which I did to show appreciation and spread the word about such a useful tool). So, I did not make a blatant copy. Nor did I take credit for what someone else designed. Nor did I try to sell her pattern as my own. I did not steal her hard work.

    3. YES, I CAN deny that my seams were copied from the pattern generator I used. There were NO side seams present in the generated pattern. It's common for corsets to have a front and back seam. But traditional corsets (that I have seen), don't usually have side seams. Let alone have them running perfectly vertical up the sides only. This is mainly the result of using fabric, which has some stretch or give. Have you even looked at all the different corset designs that exist? It's not necessary and definitely not standard practice to have side seams. Go do some serious research. Then, comeback and tell me again how the seams are the same on Renaissance, Victorian, and modern corsets. I've seen corsets with as many as 20 seams or as little as just one.

    BTW, your posts do not strike me as rude or arrogant in the least. My impression is that you are just grossly ill-informed of the situation and ignorant in many ways of copyright and creative license. I appreciate that you try and give Coquetry Clubwear the benefit of the doubt. But, you're fooling no one but yourself. You are entitled to your own opinion, but I wish you would educate yourself on the whole subject before forming an opinion and voicing it like this. IMHO, your comments have been vague and full of holes having nothing to really support them. How common are pop tab corsets, really? Go do a search and count them. Then, let me know your results.

    Obviously, this situation is not as simple as you claim. Or, debates over copyright would not have continued for hundreds, or thousands, of years now. And, it wouldn't be such the problem that it is to this day. Go ask Disney or Lego if copyright is a simple situation.

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  25. Hi there,
    I just found your site and have read the comments here about the copied corset. I have to say anybody with an eye for quality can see that yours is the superior product and the fineness of your work lends authenticity. I am sorry that the pattern was taken without giving credit to you.
    Like many crafts people and artists, I too have dealt with ruthless copiers with no imagination and no confidence. I can only hope that their lack of vision will catch up with them eventually.
    I believe in sharing knowledge, but lets give credit where credit is due.
    Lorelei

    ReplyDelete
  26. Thank you, Lorelei (Anon), for the support. Sorry for my ranting above. I just get very aggravated when someone voices an opinion with out full knowledge of the situation. I hope this post and all the comments left here will help others understand how important copyright is to creative people. So many great artists and crafters have shared such valuable info on the internet at their own expense. I would hate for this sharing to stop just because a few thoughtless souls abuse the privilege.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  27. No professor, I did not plagiarize from this other author. I merely read their article, then wrote a paper that bears a striking resemblance to their own without citations.
    Would like to see how well that works out...

    ReplyDelete
  28. This is awful. It has also happened to me too! Sometimes the internet is wonderful, and other times...by putting my own work online...it just brings the copycats on.

    Once I spent 1 year working on designing something...and was told to my face they were going to "copy it but make it better." That was in the 90s...and I will NEVER forget it. she fully meant what she said...she was my student in college. Wretched person.

    Well, I use it all as a challenge because I keep getting weirder and weirder in my materials and processes creativity. I don't want my stuff to look like someone else, or vice versa!

    There is an out of print TAB book from the 1960s or 70s. Do you have it? There are tons of amazing inspirations in there. Let me know if you need the title...I will hunt for my copy.

    As for the above corset situation...the similarities are way too striking to me, but I will not comment.

    Glad to have found Tabistry! I am rarely as inspired as I have been here. :-)

    ReplyDelete
  29. Mary Anne, that sounds truly awful. It's really sad that there is little to be done about people like that. I admire your determination not to give up, but instead push boundaries even more.

    No, I don't have that book. Though, I think I might have seen a few photos from it online. Would be a cool book to treasure.

    Glad to have inspired you!

    Mieljolie

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  30. I think your corsets are way prettier and seems to be made with much more skill!

    ReplyDelete
  31. Hi, Mieljolie. In your response above to anonymous, you imply that (s)he is not well-acquainted with the concepts of copyright law regarding this subject. I am, in fact, well-aware of copyright and other legal issues, having graduated from Law School with a Doctorate in Law. Perhaps I could add a realistic legal perspective.

    Under law, clothing design is considered to be a "useful article" and is simply NOT protected by copyright law. You cannot copyright clothes themselves, nor can you copyright the designs for clothes.

    As such, 15 minutes after the newest designer dress hits the shelves, it can be bought, disassembled, copied exactly, and re-marketed the very next day -- as long as no attempt is made to claim that it is made by the original manufacturer, and as long as no trademarked logos or distinctive and unique decorations that might be considered "artistic design elements" are included.

    I -=AM=- sorry, but to the extent that what you make are corsets, (abet of a somewhat unusual material,) Ellen of CoquetryClubWear is essentially 100% correct, and you are simply wrong. I know that it seems monumentally unfair, but that is simply how copyright law worked out in regards to clothing and other "utility" items from lamps to cookware, and to shoes and purses.

    This is why, in things like purses, designer logos are often quite huge -- since making the protected logo a large part of the visual element of the purse essentially stymies those who would otherwise simply copy the fabric/leather purse construction and sell the same design at 1/10th the cost.

    Useful articles are protectable under copyright law only to the extent that they contain "physically or conceptually separable elements" that are UNRELATED to its utility. [17. U.S.C. 101 (1996)] The most famous case illustrating this difference was one where a statuette design had been appropriated into a lamp base -- there the court ruled that the artistic form of the statuette was separable from the utility of a lamp base, and that the statuette's designer was therefore protected.

    Now, if your corsets included specific designs or patterns in the assembled material (e.g., unique artwork formed by the pattern of construction itself, THAT could be protected under the concept of fabric design, which is treated as if it was a work of art distinct from the garment itself. One way of attempting to understand this difference would to consider if the object could be exhibited as a work of art ABSENT the utility use for which it made (IOW, absent it being a corset).

    BTW, confirmation of this information about clothing and copyright is readily available http://bit.ly/fT7qG3

    ReplyDelete
  32. Hello, Dex. Thanks for commenting your opinion on this aged but still heated debate. In an effort to be unbiased, I'm including your response, regardless of how off base I personally feel it is. I guess, like many others, you must have skimmed this rather extensive post and list of comments and missed what was being said.

    I've already mentioned that fashion has more restricted rights than art (in my 9th response above). The problem isn't copyright per se, so much as morals, honesty and decency. When a famous fashion designer is "knocked of" most of the time it's easy to trace the origins of the original design.

    To sum up, Ellen wouldn't even give me credit. Or, even admit where she got the design. She used the term "tabistry" in her pop tab section of her store. This term was coined by a friend of mine. She had to have seen my work before using that term and my design. Just too coincidental.

    So, no. I wasn't wrong. I hadn't stated I was going to pursue litigation against her. Though I do feel copyright laws need to be reevaluated in these modern times. My honest goal is to educate others. To do this, I'm merely stating the facts. And helping other form a more accurate impression of her company and others like it.

    Finally, I'm sorry you feel the need to take Ellen's side because you feel the law is with her. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't make it right.

    Mieljolie

    ReplyDelete
  33. I find this a little unfair, i've read everything here and it seems (inmy personal oppinion the feeling i get when i read it) like you attack everyone who tries to suggest otherwise to your allegations. I make material corsets and have dabbled in pop tab construction and find that making a corset, the idea of which itoo generated on my own without outside influence or google searching, would be a simple task providing i use a pattern i own for material corsets. Should i do this it would have highly similar seams to yours, if anything more so than the pink one (the one displayed in the blog) in question because that is the kind of corset i like. Just as if i made a baseball cap it would likely turn out like other pop tab caps because they are based off the same cap. I hope this makes some sort of sence to you even if you do not agree, i only add my oppinion to bring to mind that, should you be mis-judging this lady, you likely have ruined her reputation, had her insulted beyond belief by the comments supporting you, and probably crushed much of her confidence. I'm just a girl from the north but i know what it would be like to have my designs stolen and iknow what falsely being accused is like and above all else i know how miscomunication especially over the internet can cause troubles. Being over maticulous about every tiny detail of their speech is a judgement of their english skills and communications skills, not nessesarily of their guilt. I hope you will consider this openly and be gentle in the way in which you judge me for i greatly do not enjoy responces otherwise. We are humans, we are capable of being rashional and empathetic and ionly wish to contribute a bit of my own heart to this fragile argument. -Jacki

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  34. Well, Jacki, though this particular issue has been long over for some time now, I feel the time you took to respond here deserves some reply. Just so ya know, the offending item and all other pop tab creations have been removed (to my knowledge) from her site.

    I am saddened to hear that you think I'm "attacking" others who believe differently. I was unaware that voicing an opinion about what someone else says is a personal attack upon the person. Furthermore, If you feel it is okay to rob someones design and call it your own and sell it, then we will never see eye to eye. If you feel Ellen did not steal my design, I would love to hear more of your reasoning. But, I still think it highly unlikely you will convince me or most people who have read this otherwise. Especially since you don't have all the visual facts in front of you to make a fair determination. Now that my pattern has been removed from this site, and the corset in question has been removed from hers (along with the views of the back of the corset), you cannot not truly compare the similarities. You, like others, state that all corsets are similar, yet I can show dozens to the contrary. Just googling "corset" brings up too many to count. The styles are different in so many ways, it's not funny. Please, I reiterate again, show me your pop tab corset or even your fabric one for that matter. I'd love to see how similar they are. And, I'll repeat myself, you can make a corset, as my light blue one shows, that looks nothing like my first one. Why, then does hers look just like my pattern in shape and style down to the laces across the front? I have a friend who made a corset of tabs that sewed each one to a backing of leather. I wouldn't think of accusing him of copying.

    I do realize now that I used the wrong terminology earlier in my comments about seams. I was referring mainly to the splits where it's laced up. The pattern I displayed would actually have four "sewn" seam (two in front and two in back) and three open seams (on the sides and one in back) that are laced. Coincidentally, this was the same layout as hers. But, if you have an example of a corset made from ANYTHING that is like this, I'm all for seeing it. If you find it, I still doubt it looks like mine. Hers just happened to have the exact shape at each panel, too. Hmm...

    If you still insist she could be innocent and think corsets are that much alike in style and seams, I'll let you know another little reason that I never mentioned before that made me certain she copied my pattern from my blog. It was the use of the panels in the back as shown in my design. I omitted these panels from my finished piece, not liking how they were fitting when I overestimated the angle of the "v"-shaped front panel. Not reading what I wrote and basing hers off of my design, she had to turn the back panels upside down after they were woven to make the corset fit right. Why else would she have done that in her corset, otherwise? It certainly isn't typical.

    As for ruining her reputation, I can only say that I believe she has done a good job of that herself. I'm only stating the facts I have and how they appear to me. If she had even made the slightest attempt at an apology to me, I would have deleted (and still would delete) this entire post with comments from my blog forever.

    And one other thing before I close, may I ask that you please not misrepresent what I write. I did not criticize her speech or grammar or, as you put it, make judgment of her English and communications skills. It would get me no where. I was judging actual comments. What was said, not her ability to say it. Big difference there. If I've given you the impression that I'm bashing others, it is cetainly not my intent. But, it doesn't mean I have to agree with what each person says, either. I hope I've made my point without offending you.

    Good day,

    Mieljolie

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  35. I do not think you understood whati said at all, and i would like only to clarify that when i said attack it was simply that the way you wrote seemed harsh to me, like an authoritive teacher unwiling to listen to a student's justification (as an extreme version not that you did not listen) the other points i would prefer to let be as i do not think i can explain them for you to better understand as its one of those things that are better explained in person. I do think that the extra points and explenations you've proided seems much more plausable than what i've read above certainly though i save my judgement to myself, i mearly wished to play devil's advocate to a defence i did not see well voiced to give the lady a fair chance. Thank you for your time, i realized te debate was long since passed but it was important for me to make sure both sides were equally defended, only because i've seen too many people be trodden on because of an inability to defend themselved properly. This does not mean i believe her to be innocent, or guilty, i never did not will. I felt that the consequences of the allegations being wrong were great and needed to be pointed out (thus the what if factor). I know corsets are all different as well i did not say they were the same, i said because i like the same kind it was based off of (before the reiteration of "seams"). I just find that comment insulting personally, not as you being insulting but knowin that someone thinks me ignorant of my favorite clothing piece :P. You beedent answer this, i've done what i wished to do in providing an alternayive view and i'm not wishing to linger in this argument o write or wrong any longer. -Jacki

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  36. On the contrary, Jacki, I believe I understand plainly enough. But, if you do intend to play Devil's advocate, please do your research and provide some facts to substantiate your views before you spout out that you feel I'm being harsh and one-sided. I hear what you are saying as I heard her out, too. I just don't agree and am telling you why. What more can I do to give her a fair chance? I've posted her exact replies and those of every person who has commented whether I agreed or not. She is more than welcome to post her own comments here, too. I don't feel that I'm rash or narrow-minded person. It's just my opinion that what I've read so far hasn't helped her case. There are just too many points against her. Same design, almost identical weave pattern, same panel shapes, same seams, use of the term "tabistry", partial admission to having seen my work, dishonest conduct and false claims on her site. What more needs to be said? I will listen.

    BTW, what type of corset is it you like that is "the same kind it was based off of"? I based mine off of an Elizabethan fit. But, after many alterations to the design, it looks nothing like it. Please, if you will, show me other corsets in this style. Do you mean strapless, over bust, cones-shaped, back/side laced with faux front lace, stretch to form fit style, made with tabs?

    Dex restated a valid point that there is nothing to be done through the judicial system. This is one reason I took it to my blog in the first place. To let others know what kind of people are out there in the world. Ellen may not be a bad person, but if she is going to run a business and tout her designs as original, she should be able to back up the claim. I'm sorry I had to be the one to call her on it. I just hope that she is more educated now and chooses the right path next time.

    Mieljolie

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    1. I have been reading this post and all the comments and I do have to agree with Anon- you appear to be very narrow-minded with people who voice their opinions that don't happen to agree with you. It's a little ironic that when Anon said this to you, you did the same exact thing in reply that he/she said you were doing to others. I'm not asking you to change your opinion, everyone is allowed their own opinion of course, but there is no reason to be aggressive with those who disagree with what you are saying. This whole situation isn't black and white at all, but I do have to say that there are many sites out there with corsettes very similar to yours that were around before your site was. As previous comments have pointed out, there really aren't that many ways you can design a corsette, so they all do tend to look alike, though they may differ in small ways. Also, saying that Anon sounds like Ellen- the owner of that online store wasn't the only one who doesn't agree with in this situation. Just because they disagree with you doesn't mean they don't matter. As to your comment about the caps that were "back in stock"- what does that matter??? That isn't a big deal. That really isn't "unethical and... immoral." First, you don't know that situation! Maybe she was selling them elsewhere. Just because you looked through that site doesn't mean she never sold them in the history of the world. Seriously, give people a break! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and everyone's opinion should be respected. Honestly, I love the stuff that you do, but I'm a little annoyed that you can't realize for one second that other people matter and have feelings too. Just because you think she stole your idea doesn't mean other people have to agree with your opinion. And don't act like the people that don't agree with you don't deserve your time. I guarantee you someone that doesn't agree with you wouldn't reply until they read all the comments. Just because they don't see the situation the same way that you do doesn't mean they have no idea what they're talking about. Your views aren't the only ones out there! Also, some of your replies to comments were rude. It's one thing to not care what other people think, but to be rude to them when they went out of their way to be polite to you! In this case, it doesn't really matter if she copied your designs or not, that isn't the issue here! The real issue is that you aren't looking around enough to realize that you're being rude and narrow minded to people that came to your site in the first place to see your stuff because they probably liked it! Please just think about what you're saying before you say it next time. Really, I'm not saying you're wrong or right in what you say about Ellen, but that you should think about other people sometimes.

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    2. Whew- corsets. Don't know where I was going with corsettes. I'm tired. Anyway, I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I just think you should understand how other people feel in this case.

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    3. Ack! Sarah, I'm rather disconcerted that I come off as "rash", "narrow-minded" and "rude". I must apologize, for that is not my intention. People who know me, know I'm as easy going as they come. I'm just voicing my opinions on here to the responses in what I hope are rational and logical replies. And, yes, I do think everyone's opinion matters and do care enough to take the trouble to post and response to them all. Please forgive my attempts to correct the errors I feel they are making in their conclusions. What it sounds like all this is saying is that standing up for yourself is making a scene. Disagreeing is very bad. Or, that it's okay for others to steal someone else's design because there was a slim chance in hell that they might have come up with the identical item on there own. Some people seem so eager to side on her behalf without half of the facts. If they had just read everything, seen the pattern and images of her corset, would they feel the same? Yes, I'm slightly annoyed at the fact that it is even an issue.

      Would you have me not say anything? Not try to correct their views to stick up for my hard work. Just because I can't take her to court about it, I should keep my mouth shut or be taken as rude? If anyone has a problem with me being honest and sharing my feelings on my own blog, I warn them to not follow me, because I won't be changing this habit to make those afraid of confrontation happy.

      I didn't feel as though I was being "aggressive" just for not agreeing with others. I haven't name called, threanted or taunted anyone. Just asking for more thoughtful responses that don't just try to contradict me, and perhaps examples might help their case. I keep hearing how similar corsets are. Are they? Really? Has anyone besides me honestly taken the time to really look at them? There truly are MANY ways to make a corset owing partly to the fact that they are to present different looks and provide different postures.

      My opinions were mostly based on the important facts that the comments were either way of track of the topic as Dex was, or that I've yet to see any comments citing specific examples of these similar corsets that the others mention. When I've search extensively for pop tab corsets, besides my own, I get a small handful that are nothing like mine in the least except for Ellen's (unless they actually did make theirs from my patterns). Where are all these pop tab corsets? I'd love to see them. The ones I see are mainly pop tab maille. Honestly, I can't find any made with any material that are remotely like mine. So, I wish that others would show me some or stop making these unsubstantiated comments. Show examples, please, if you want to convince us.

      As for Ellen selling the caps before. No, I can say fairly certainly that she had not sold them before on THAT site that she claimed it was "back in stock" on. And, whether she had sold them on another site is irrelevant. "Back in Stock" would refer to that site alone, not all sites or even caps she has ever sold. So, in my opinion it is deceiving, which to me is unethical and immoral.

      BTW, I have just noticed that she has later attempted to sell her knock offs on another site called http://www.monstermarketplace.com, but everything seems to be listed as "out of stock" at the moment. So, I guess she hasn't learned. Oh well.

      The result in all of this is that I will not be posting tabistry patterns for free on this blog anymore. If you would like a pattern, please contact me through my email.

      And, I also apologize to any easily offended person who has been traumatized by reading through this entire post as it shattered your image of the world as a perfect happy place with no evil or problems...where the good wear white and the bad wear black...and is full of pretty flowers that never die and cuddly soft animals that never bite.

      Mieljolie

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    4. I realize now how much more angry my comment sounds than I meant it to when I posted it. I didn't mean to sound so angry!!! I was just a little annoyed with some of the replies I saw to comments. I guess I took it too far and went off on a rant, I apologize. And about the corsets all looking the same: I have actually looked at corsets, I simply meant that corsets made out of unique materials (specifically pop tabs) tend to look alike because the only way they can differ largely is in color. Yes some include zippers and some don't, some include different seams than others, some have different types of tabs, and some even have different structures but all in all those differences aren't as great as if you were to compare corsets made of fabric sold at a large company. And no, I would not rather have you say nothing, because as I said everyone's opinions do matter. It was the manner in which you expressed your opinions that I felt was disrespectful. I also did not say it's OK to steal other people's work. I do not think it is at all. It's not right, and I would never agree with it. I did say, however, that the issue with her "theft" wasn't the only problem I saw here (though I'm not saying it was unimportant). I recall saying that it isn't a black and white situation, and it isn't! As it is likely that she took your designs, since you are correct in saying that there aren't many pop tab corsets online, it isn't 100%. There is no way you could ever prove that she did without her saying it herself. There are many different places she could have gotten the idea. And maybe, just maybe, she could have come up with the idea herself and not realized it was taken! Everyone has done that at some point in their lives. Now she did admit to perusing sites with designs including yours, but that doesn't mean she specifically used any one. Also, you don't know for sure she wasn't talking about after she put her designs for sale. Remember, here in America, it's innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around. She was also quite polite in her response,if not a tad condescending. Of course, that all goes out the door if she did do as you say. And that doesn't mean I'm taking her side. Not one bit! Like I said- it's not a black and white situation. It can't be proven that she did take your designs, nor can be proven that she didn't. The problem is that all evidence is circumstantial! The sad thing is that you really can't get it copyrighted now as someone suggested because hers are out there on the net and she could easily turn the case against you! Anyway, best of luck with your designs, and I truly hope this whole situation doesn't discourage you from your art and zest for life!

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    5. I get it now. I have reread my comments, and have to somewhat agree that they sound stern and almost bad. I guess you too must now see how difficult it is to communicate feelings in text. :)

      I must blame my annoyance with the whole issue that the pattern and her images are gone now. I believe this is causing problems in the interpretation. There is no longer clear proof of the wrong doing. So, it's making me sound accusatory. I wondered why so many were jumping on me about my attitude and saying that she might be innocent. It's rather ironic that I stated in the beginning that I "always fear that what I type will be misread from the way I intended". This is indeed the problem.

      I do want to comment about all pop tab corsets looking similar. I hope this isn't truly the case. Cuz, if so, I fear I waste my time trying to come up with new designs. ;)

      Best of luck to you too, And thanks for taking the time to comment. Sorry for all drama this post may be causing.

      Mieljolie

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    6. I do understand how difficult it is to communicate feelings in text, I have noticed that with my responses and comments too! I do completely understand your annoyance. What has the internet done to us??? It's so much easier to get annoyed with people, and I've noticed people start things just to start things! And then everything sounds different than we meant it to. It's a mess this world we live in, I must admit! About the corsets: nah, you haven't been wasting your time! I guess I was speaking without really thinking when I said that. It's true they don't look as different as traditional (or whatever you'd like to call them) corsets may look (there are so very many types!)but they do all have differences. I do love your new design with the design incorporated into the front! I forget what it's called now but it's unique and very cool. Also, even if they did all look exactly the same down to the last tab, making them wouldn't be a waste of time at all. Expression through art is one of the most valuable things we have left. Ever if they all looked the same, they would still, each and every one, be a work of art. Not everyone could do it if they tried!

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    7. Yep, it's tough to convey proper emotion in text. Especially when Blogger won't give us smiley's ;) I just noticed we are now able to reply to replies. That should make this post even more confusing. :)

      Another really bad part about this whole mess is that I realized Ellen might just be desperately trying to make a living. I can sympathize with that. With the economy the way it is, desperate times may have called for desperate measures. I really did have qualms about posting this because of that reason. My family and I are lucky enough to be getting by these days. But, I feared if I let it go, it will just get worse. More and more people will think copying is acceptable practice. This hurts those artist really struggling to make their living honestly. When her reply told me that she didn't even have decency to sympathize with my side, I knew what I had to do. The only thing I could do.

      Anyway, I hope to get back to making more tabistry items. I'm also grossly behind on posting pics of things I have finished (mostly cuz I keep changing them). It's been way too long.

      Have a great life!

      Mieljolie

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    8. Yeah that is true. I don't think the people who have generally some of the best outlooks on life (artists) should have the most trouble getting through it! That whole "starving artist" thing, and artists always having trouble selling their work... Anyway. You too! Good luck with everything and it was nice... meeting? you! I guess we could call it that haha

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    9. Yeah, sadly that's usually the case. Very few people who choose art as a profession ever really make it work. It's a competitive, ever-changing business and not really well respected by some people. So, it's difficult to make a regular living off of art.

      It was nice "meeting" you, too. :)

      Mieljolie

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  37. First of all, Thank you for keeping this argument available online. I see you've replied to every comment and I'm impressed with your dedication to this conversation. I am not familiar with tabistry or making corsets so please feel free to react as you wish whether you reply, ignore or delete this message. I won't have any useful examples, pictures or links but I did read everything on this page with attention and this is my reaction. I intend to make something completely of my own and call it my own and won't base myself on any of the knowledge available. I won't read any of the tutorials even if this means more work...If is so happens that I like what I make so much, maybe I'll start a business one day and if it so happens that someone else comes to me claiming I used their idea, even if I hadn't, I wouldn't be surprise of this situation in the world we live in. Corsets have been around for much longer than the w.w.w. but new ways and designs will always be created. However, the way I would respond the that first e-mail if I was the one to receive it instead of Ellen would be quite different, I would focus on the opportunity of hearing from another individual with common interest and talent in the matter and see if I can work a common ground we can both benefit from. Once again, I am grateful to see this argument, it shows me that even in my situation, without knowing the techniques & materials, I still have some advantages. It may not be the message you meant to pass on but it is a positive one so thank you!
    Rose

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  38. Hi Rose. I'm relieved to hear this post has been a positive help to you. Even though this post has long seen it's day, you have a very different take on the subject that is very interesting. And, I won't hold your lack of knowledge of tabistry or corsetry against you. :) I'm glad if this conversation can shed light and inspire those who are intimidated to share their work for fear of creative persecution. And, I am glad that others, like yourself, would have responded to the email differently and attempted to work together to resolve the issue instead of denying it. I was fully open to such a partnering with Ellen.

    However, I would like to clarify (if I hadn't made it clear) that copying is not all bad. One way we learn and grow is through imitation. But, I find the only personal gain that is to be acceptably achieved from copying is knowledge. After all, Picasso "studied" many great artist before discovering his own style.

    Creating is in our nature as humans. I don't feel you have to intentionally not look at others' work or not pursue help learning a new medium. Be creative and original doesn't mean we have to "reinvent the wheel" every time we make something. There is inspiration all around us. And, other people more experienced willing to help us out. That is wonderful.

    But, on the other side of it, we always have those who misunderstand originality and abuse kindness. Some just have a self-centered untrusting nature that causes them to try to take advantage. Perhaps they are worried that they couldn't succeed on their own merits.

    To reiterate, I'm honored to see the work others create from my tutorials/patterns. Education and personal use are perfectly expected. I've been so happy to see others' images after they tried tabistry fro the first time. Then, on top of that, to see such originality in their bags, jewelry, bracers, tops, coifs, and even a mermaid tale. Taking ideas learned to create something new is natural and encouraged. That is inspiration. I'm all for this. And, if the ORIGINAL creations they design and make after learning tabistry began selling well, I would be proud that I was able to help. And, promote them to my best ability.

    The thing that upsets me personally, however, is if they try to sell items made directly from my patterns, and as there own work. Just not into having my own work ripped off for someone else's self-promotion or profit. I will not willingly consent to that.

    Anyway, sorry to have babbled on again. Good luck with your projects! I wish you the utmost success!

    Mieljolie

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  39. Okay, I think many commenters are missing the point of this post. And, I'm kinda getting tired and cranky about the whole mess. :)

    It was never originally in doubt as to whether or not Ellen copied the corset. This was quite clear and even reflects in the type of comments made at first. Because, as I tried to explain, when this post was first published the pattern and offending corset pics, and the facts were all available to compare.

    I think the comments are now so side tracked as to whether it was my design or her own, that it is getting frustrating. I seem to be spending more and more time defending my actions, that I truly am starting to sound mean. The whole reason I posted this was that it was my only way to help her and others see how wrong it is to take others work. From what I'm aware of, she has since stopped selling her tabistry work. Which means it was a a partial success, I think. So, there is no reason to comment that it might have been her own work or that she has every right under the law to do what she did. Neither of those points were even part of the original issue.

    So, please stop posting that Ellen might have been innocent, and that I didn't give her a chance. It saddens me most that I have to continue to explain myself when I was truly the victim in this case. This is only making me look bad. You may take from this what you will.

    I will continue to post your comments and comment where relevant. But, I won't be defending my comments, anymore.

    I hope that you never have to experience this, yourselves. It isn't fun.

    Mieljolie

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  40. I have this huge collection of tabs, Amp tabs to be specific, and I was pinning pictures of tab art on to Pinterest for ideas and I ran across your red corset, which I thought was amazing...and then I read this blog...I probably shouldn't bother responding since you've made it clear you're not going to respond any longer...and I can understand why, it's been a long time since you originally posted this, but it's bugging the crap out of me that you keep saying how everyone who disagrees with you is missing the point, even Dex who simply stated the copyright laws. You can't say that's not part of the main issue when you post at the very top of the blog that "if you respect copyright do not buy anything at coquetryclub". And I understand that you are defensive because you feel ripped off and you want people to be on your side and people who are disagreeing with you might make you feel bad but people who disagree with you are not necessarily "offended" so saying patronizing things like this: "And, I also apologize to any easily offended person who has been traumatized by reading through this entire post as it shattered your image of the world as a perfect happy place with no evil or problems...where the good wear white and the bad wear black...and is full of pretty flowers that never die and cuddly soft animals that never bite." is probably unnecessary. (I know you keep apologizing for coming off the wrong way, but after reading this entirely too long thread, these were the two things that bugged me and since I spent so much time reading this, I felt the need to respond...probably didn't have to. On a positive note: I do love your creativity. I shared that red corset on Pinterest (with a link back) and on Facebook. It's amazing. I don't think I'll be attempting it any time soon (and if I did, it'd be my own version...I can't follow patterns for poopie)...but it's very very cool.)

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  41. Hello, GypsyStomp. Thanks for sharing my work with others. I'm honored you like my work. You're right in that I'm not going to spend much time responding to posts on this subject anymore unless I feel something new is being said. Sorry it all has bugged you. I'm glad, at least, that it has at least made you stop and think about the issue a bit, even if you don't agree with how I handled it.

    With all the internet legislation trying to get passed these days by big record companies and the like under the guise of copyright regulations, I'm hoping it will make others more aware of what it really means. Looks like copyright laws will have to be reevaluated in some manner in the future. Though, I doubt it will have much effect on protection for the actual artists.

    Best wishes on your Amp tab project.

    Mieljolie

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